Links between documents

[shorn]

I have been doing some brainstorming using a program called Hog Bay Notebook (http://www.hogbaysoftware.com/products/hog_bay_notebook.php). It has lots of interesting features, but one of the most fun for brainstorming is its ability to create arbitrary links between any documents in the file. (Like Scrivener, behind the scenes Hog Bay is creating a series of separate files inside a project wrapper.)

Hog Bay supports wiki-style links, where any WordWithAnInternalCap will provide a potential link, but also you can select any text and choose Create a link (to link to a new file) or Link to... (to link to an existing file) from the context menu. (WikiWords annoy me so I turn them off.)

The point is, arbitrary links provide a different type of navigation within your project that goes beyond the file order (Binder order, in Scrivener). If I am jotting down notes about an evil uncle, I can go straight to my notes about the virtuous nephew, or create a new file about the cringing cousin, directly from my uncle page.

This would probably be quite a task to implement in Scrivener, Keith, even if you thought it was worth doing, but I find that the process of writing is both organized and disorganized. This kind of linking capability might be helpful.

Minimum fallback suggestion: could you implement links to external files, so, for example, I could link a Scrivener page to my Hog Bay brainstorming session, for example? Clicking on the link would open my brainstorming document in Hog Bay Notebook.

[KB]

Actually I think I know how I could implement this quite easily - for internal files, at least. It would similarly to "link" for web pages. For external files it could be more difficult, but doable. I don't like Wiki-Words, so I wouldn't do it that way. I have added it to the "to do" list though - I like the idea, and think it is definitely doable before an official release (though don't quote me on that).

[amberv]

Some wild brainstorming here.

I was thinking about this earlier, as well, though coming at it from a different angle. While WWW style links are probably the easiest, some form of "this document is linked to these documents" would perhaps be more useful to writers. The problem with a WWW style link is that you cannot easily see at a glance what a document is connected with.

Where I found myself wishing for something like this was linking articles from the People and Places (by the way, Events might be a nice top-level addition), to portions of the plot.

You might be loathe to the concept, but a third "Connections" section in the document pane/drawer, where you could drag other documents, is the best implementation that I have thought of. Clicking on items in Connections would open the document. Hmm. One thing that might increase the visual recognition of this would be to colour them as their labels. That might introduce complexities with keeping them live, though.

SuperNoteCard does something along this line, though not with documents, just database references.

To tie this in with the WWW style links, they could be automatically added to Connections (perhaps with a different colour).

[KB]

The trouble here is that I don't like the idea of adding anything else to the index card/notes pane - I think that is simple and elegant as it is, and I really don't want to overcrowd it. I also think we're heading into the realms of DevonThink here - that's a fantastic program, and I am not going to try to compete with its cross-referencing capabilities (which took them years); Scrivener isn't supposed to be a databasing app.

So, I'd rather keep this simple. The way I see working is this: you are typing some notes on what's going to happen, and you decide you want to link the word "Erik" to a document with his character description. So you select the word, go to Text > Document Link (or some such) in the menu (or a keyboard shortcut), and then select which document to link to the word via a browser. Erik would turn into a link (probably of a different colour to web hyperlinks to adumbrate the difference, which could be set via preferences). (Note that even if you renamed the document, the link would remain, because the link would be the document's unique identifier rather than to the doc. name; if the document had been deleted when you click the link, you will just get a message telling you so with the option to remove the link).

When looking through the document again, you could click on the link to see the document referred to, or ctrl-click and select "Open link in separate editor" for quick reference.

I like this approach a lot. Anything else I think is a bit beyond the scope of 1.0 - but you can always hound me about it for 2.0.

Thanks for the suggestions,
KB

[shorn]

Keith, I think your approach would work, especially for the brainstorming scenario I mentioned, and especially if you could actually create a new file from "Erik", to use your example. (Because I can easily think of a situation in which I am writing on one topic or in one chapter, and as I go I decide I really need to create, for example, a character page for "Erik". (In Hog Bay Notebook, the new file is created below the current file and you then drag it where you want.)

But what all this really brings up is the question of keeping track of such links. Programs like Avenir and SuperNoteCard provide (different) ways to see, for example, a list of characters appearing in a scene, or a list of scenes in which a given character appears. (Avenir will apparently be adding locations as well.)

The difficulty I think is to find a fluid and, as you say, elegant interface within which to write, without overloading the user with boxes and panes and sheets, etc. The fact remains, that it may be useful to visualize a piece of writing in various ways. Food for thought, and, you're right, probably a version 2 question.

[amberv]

One of the things that I like about Tinderbox is the way it lets you present the same data in a multitude of visualisation formats, some of which have no connection to the other. For example, you can have items in a strict outline, like the Draft, but then change your way of viewing those documents into a map view, where you can freely move little squares representing the documents around on a white board. This lets you establish relationships between documents, beyond hierarchy.

One way in which I used this feature last year, was to place all of the container documents (the difference between a folder and a document is artificial in Tinderbox) that represented plot threads, into a huge time-line, where I drew anchor points on the board behind them, to represent various milestones in the story. This way, I could see at a glance which threads were connected, chronologically speaking, with other threads. Double-clicking on a thread would descend the map level into it, and now I could view all of the scenes within it.

In addition to nebulous placement, Tinderbox will draw arrows between documents which have been linked to one another, either in the text WWW style, or document to document links (like I was describing). So this places another layer of non-tree connection between the documents.

Now, is all of this something that Scrivener should have? No, I don't think so. I am just providing some more examples from how other applications have approached the problem of organisation.

While a link to a page about Erik, where the word Erik is specifically used in the document, is an obvious link -- what if Erik is never mentioned, but is integral to that scene? What if Erik is a nebulous idea, slowly solidifying over the course of the story? There are many cases where links from specific phrases are not ideal.

But, as a work-around, if there is some sort of internal document linking, you could implement this yourself in Notes. Just make a section called Links, and link away. Then the concept you are linking to need not be directly mentioned, or even alluded to, in the narrative.

[KB]

More interesting ideas... To address these points in no particular order:

the difference between a folder and a document is artificial in Tinderbox.

As far as folders and documents being artificial in Tinderbox, I am pondering on this at the moment. Maybe folders should have text attached to them too, and maybe text and folders could be converted back and forth into each type, with some visual indication in the text (eg. a different background colour) as well as the binder icon. In export or draft, you could choose not to show folders (in draft with that option, you would only see their titles, as now). That would allow you to block out larger ideas or chapter ideas before working on the smaller parts. Or maybe I will just go with the current intention to allow folders just to have index cards and notes, but no main text (but then, what about export?)... I'm still pondering on that one.[/quote]

Back on-topic, to links:

One of my main concerns as far as having specific links for characters, events or locations (such as Avenir has) is that I do not want to limit Scrivener to novelists only. Writers of any large work that requires organisation and research should be able to use it - even though I myself will be using mainly for fiction (though not exclusively). So I don't want to hard-wire anything that makes it a novelist-only tool.

The other thing is that Scrivener isn't intended to be Avenir, SuperNoteCard, Tinderbox, or anything else. It was inspired by programs like Ulysses and Copywrite (and yes, Avenir), but was designed to work in a way that seemed intuitive to me. It would be silly for me to try to compete with, say, the features of Tinderbox or DevonThink, as I would just be chasing their tails for years to come. Scrivener isn't a database program - it's not intended to be - so links have to be looser.

Programs like Avenir and SuperNoteCard provide (different) ways to see, for example, a list of characters appearing in a scene, or a list of scenes in which a given character appears. (Avenir will apparently be adding locations as well.)

I don't know how SuperNoteCard handles this, because I don't really get on with the program - it seems very odd to me and I couldn't see this feature when I tried it. But I do know that with Avenir you have to add the characters which appear in each scene manually, in the box in the drawer. This is the most sensible approach I can think of, and I seriously considered adding a similar capability when I was in the design process for Scrivener. The reason I decided against it is that it's simply a chore. That box there sort of makes you think that you *need* to add those things - a looser links system (inline) means you don't have to think about it unless you want to. When I'm writing, I want to be writing, throwing ideas around, all that stuff, but not thinking about maintaining some list of characters in every scene that would need to be updated every time you edit your scene...

I think AmberV has already covered the main problem here - even if I did spend months implementing a feature that would create automatic links between documents for you, based on words and phrases used (as DevonThink does), it would often be meaningless in novel-writing anyway. You aren't going to spell out the main theme in every scene (unless you are writing with the intention of a movie option from Spielburger, maybe). There's no way any program could automatically check motifs that run through your work, either. Suppose you had a motif of separation in which characters always seemed to be talking to each other across rivers, roads, through windows, between rooms, across the phone, but never face to face? There's no way a program could look through all documents and say, "Hey, here's a clever separation motif which links with that other scene...", because there are no obvious linking words (unless you want to write SEPARATION MOTIF in brackets or in a note every time you write these scenes).

And actually, it's even problematic with names. What if you are taking the Chretien de Troyes route and giving your character a new name right in the middle of your story? Or writing something like the Matrix in which the main character can be referred to as either "Mr Anderson" or "Neo"? This would then require a further degree of separation in which you had to set up lists of equivalent words - which would start to turn Scrivener into a database program.

especially if you could actually create a new file from "Erik", to use your example. (Because I can easily think of a situation in which I am writing on one topic or in one chapter, and as I go I decide I really need to create, for example, a character page for "Erik". (In Hog Bay Notebook, the new file is created below the current file and you then drag it where you want.)

This is exactly how I think link should work. Select and create a link to an existing document or create a new one.

Wow, that was a much longer post than I had intended - I really need to get on with some (non-Scrivener-related) work now...

[janra]

I see I'm not the only one who likes cross-referencing :-)

Just thought I'd put my two cents in here:

I have background information for a novel stored in a wiki. This is not just character sheets, and it isn't research/reference documents - for SF/F type stuff, you have (potentially) information on an entire world to set up. Right now, I find that the wiki format is ideal for me; I can make cross-references to pages that don't exist as I type, without breaking the flow of my thoughts, and fill in the pages later. It's dead easy to make links to existing pages as well. I'm sure you've seen a wiki in action.

I'm not quite as worried about having links in the draft, but in a background notes section I would find them invaluable. And speaking of background notes, "research" just doesn't seem like the right place to put stuff I've made up... is it possible to rename or add to the four top-level categories? :-)

-janra

[shorn]

Another thought about links.

The only things I would add to the way Hog Bay Notebook creates links is 1) a way to choose where the new note will go (rather than creating it and then dragging it where you want) and 2) automatic return links so that you could toggle back and forth between the source page and the linked page (rather than create a second link back manually). This could be a preference, I guess, in case you didn't want automatic back links.

One implementation of automatic back links can be seen in Tinderbox using its "Notes" feature.

[KB]

I'm not quite as worried about having links in the draft, but in a background notes section I would find them invaluable. And speaking of background notes, "research" just doesn't seem like the right place to put stuff I've made up... is it possible to rename or add to the four top-level categories?

You can already rename the "research" folder - just option-click on it. My to-do list has the following:

New Binder Project assistant should provide an option to customise which folders appear in new projects (Draft and Research as standard, with People and Places as optional, along with other optional folders and icons - eg. Events)

I'm open to suggestions on what folders should be available...